Marital Talk

So, if you confide in a member of the opposite sex, does it turn into cheating?  I’ve always said that I thought this would be the most painful type of cheating.  So, if there is no sex, is it still an affair?

According to the Peggy Vaughan of DearPegg.com and author of The Monogamy Myth:  A Personal Handbook for dealing with Affairs who was quoted in Ladies Home Journal, Yes, it is an "emotional affair or "accidental affair".  She says, "Emotional affairs are most likely to affect the person who would never intend to cheat."

"According to the American Association of Marriage and Family Therapy, 15 percent of wives and 25 percent of husbands have had an extramarital sex.  Add emotional affairs and other non-physical intimacy, and the numbers go up by 20 percent." 

And, so, you ask yourself, what’s wrong with chatting it up with someone, a co-worker, that you have much in common with?  "No touching doesn’t always mean Harmless Flirting."  And, the experts really believe that it is very very wrong.

The basic idea is, there is deception.  So, that makes the risk seem harmless but when the guilty partner starts to rationalize that it’s okay, then the more hiding takes place.  The toxicity exists because of the secrecy.  The number one way to know you are having an emotional affair is if you are hiding it, then you probably are.

And, one reason it is exciting is…the secrecy, the illicitness of the relationship is what makes it exciting and tempting.  And, that’s exactly what makes it wrong.

So, are you crossing the line?  Answer the following questions from LHJ:

1. Do you touch him in "legal" ways, like picking lint off of his blazer? 
2. Do you tell him more details of your day than you do your partner.
3. Do you talk with him more about your relationship than you do with your partner.
4. Does your partner have no idea how much time you spend with this guy?
5. Do you pay attention to how you look before you see him.
6. Do you think crush-like thoughts like, "He’d love this song!".
7. Has one of you said, "I’m attracted to you but I would never act on it because I/you are attached?
8. Would you feel uncomfortable if your partner saw a videotape of the time you spend with this person?

How many times did you answer yes?

0-1:  friendship/harmless crush

2-4:  slippery slope/step back

5 or more:  911 Emotional Affair.

Is it time to fess up?  How?

1. Take responsibility.
2. Offer a sense of security.
3. Be patient.

So, it will be a painful process, just make sure you know what’s what and who is who and then make what’s right right.  Got that?

So, we made to our counseling session and when he asked, "so how’s it going?", my husband deferred to me for the answer.  And, so I told the counselor, "I got the kids to sleep in their bed all night not mr-I-will-beat-you-til-you-learn-to-sleep-in-your-bed-all-night-whether-you-want-to-or-not parent."

He got a good laugh out that as he seems to think I am against spanking.  I’ve yet to convince him I’m only against spanking when it isn’t necessary or I am only for spanking when it is necessary.  Does that make sense?

Anyway, our new goal, potty training our 3.95 year old son who hasn’t succumb to spankings, or bribing, or envy or…..anything for that matter.

His suggestion:  look up strong willed children and potty training.

My husband got a good laugh and said, "that won’t work because the first 5 or 6 links you get will be to her blogs".  Yea, that’s pretty funny.  No, it isn’t funny at all that my son who will be 4 next month refuses to use the potty.

So, that’s that.  In a nutshell. 

As you all know, we started counseling because my husband and I had some difficulties.  One of those was the fact that we had children who slept in our bed.  Here’s how the story worked:

Prior to the first child (which lasted from August of 2001 until January of 2003):

Then, from January 2003 until November 2004:

Then, from November 2004 til October 13, 2008

The last two nights:

So, today we go to counseling……..

Ok, well that little spell of flaming rudeness is over.  I’ve recovered and all is well on the home front.  That’s the most important part anyway, I do declare. 

That doesn’t mean that I don’t need my husband to step up and do his part with the emotional and mental responsibilities in our house.  I mean, it is no easy task just to keep up with the checkbook, never mind keeping up with what has to be paid and when.  And, so it goes, we will discuss this again in counseling. 

And, one other thing that I know has to be addressed is the manner in which he gets so disgusted and agitated with the kids.  However, the other night when I was experiencing a serious emotional havoc, he took over as always.  He makes it easy for me to just be emotionally unstable. 

And, I was in no way nice to him about it.  I kept asking him to please be nicer to the boys, please just talk a little nicer to them, all the while, I was being a complete pain to him.

So, Thursday will come, we will go to counseling and we will talk about it.  Then, after that, who knows?

Ok, I want him to take some mental responsibility here.  I want him to take some of the grief out of my brain and carry it around in his brain for a little while.  Over 3 months ago I informed him that he was in charge of finances.  I’ve done this many times and he always gets out of it some how.

This time, he kept saying, "let’s do it together" and I said, "no because his way of us doing it together is me doing it all".  He promised to help and blah blah blah. 

Since that time, I have continued to carry the financial burden in my brain while I try not to say anything to him and force him to be responsible for it.  It hasn’t happened yet. 

Today, I lost it on him.  I explain to him that the main reason we went to counseling was his inability to take responsibility for "stuff".  (Never mind that I took this as an opportunity to remind him that I asked him 3 weeks ago to move the garbage cans -long story, but it was 3 weeks ago?)

Then, he is short and snippity with our kids, then gets mad when they are smart-mouthing him.  I call it teaching him the skills you want him to use, my husband calls it, "I’m the adult, he is the kid."

I’m trying not to paint a terrible picture of him because he is not, you know that from your previous readings, but this issue, these two issues, one of lack of taking responsibility and the other with the manner in which he talks to the kids….these 2 issues are really bothering me.

Since my husband had that lovely dental visit, I had to do his job tonight and bath boys as well as get them to bed.  I never do this part.  I haven’t ever done it all by myself when my husband was home.  To be honest, I’ve never done it alone when he wasn’t because my mom would help me.

I know, I’m spoiled.  But, I did it tonight and our children are in their own beds, sleeping…just like every night when daddy does it.  Our referral to the marriage counselor was about my husband’s attitude.  Did we manage to work through that and get it together?  We sure did.  Although, I did have to say "if he keeps treating my kids like he has for the last 6 months, I want a divorce". 

But check that one off of the list of issues to discuss with counselor. CHECK.

The second issue was where our children slept.  Which was …in our bed. When we first discussed this Wayne told the counselor that he wanted them out of our bed but that I didn’t.  I told the counselor that what Wayne said was correct.  They don’t bother me when they sleep in our bed.  I also told the counselor that even though it didn’t bother me, I was willing to do what ever I had to do to get them out of our bed so that my husband would be happy.

You know, if it was that important to him, then as his wife, I needed to do what I had to do (since it wasn’t about harming my children or anything) to make my husband happy.  At that time, the counselor told us over and over and over and over again that "if you want this I can help you do it, but you both have to be in agreement" and he would let out this exasperated sigh.

I told him over and over and over again, I will do it even though it doesn’t bother me because it does bother my husband and I want him to be happy.  And, we bantered back and forth through about 3 sessions.

Today, I called the counselor out.  I said to him, "I knew from the look on your face that you didn’t believe I would do what ever I had to about the sleeping issue in order to make my husband happy".  He kind of half-laughed and asked me what I was meaning in particular.

The plan was that Wayne would put the kids to bed and no matter how bad they cried and begged to go to mommy’s bed, I would stay out of it and let him handle it.  I knew from the counselors face that he didn’t believe me when I said, "yes I will stay out of it.".

So ,I called him on it today.  After I explained it again, he kind of finally said "yes you are right, I’ll see you in two weeks, bye".  And again he laughed.

As he said in the very first session, counseling a counselor is simply  not an easy task.  HEHEHEHEHE

I’m running a series of posts regarding children and their emotional and mental well-being as well as their physical well being.  I’m going to link to them but realize that some of the links won’t work until much later in the week.  But, the reason I believe they are appropriate here is this quote in The Case Against Homework by Sara Bennett and Nancy Kallish which I reference quite frequently in those posts simply as TCAH.

The premises is hard how children are being pushed in our world today.  There is much discussion about homework and children losing their childhood to school work instead of playing in the dirt or running around the playground.  Here’s the quote and it is in reference to children being pushed to score well on standardized tests.

"….Each year, up to twenty test booklet have to be discarded per day because children have thrown up on them"

Are you reading that?  They throw up over a standardized test that measures basically nothing.  While are we emotionally allowing schools to bully our children like this.  Here’s the other links and I’ll date them for you as to their availability.

September 28, 2008 - The Time is Now

September 28, 2008 - More of my silly comments about homework

September 29, 2008 - Some More ADD - TCAH - My Own Child

September 29, 2008 - Let me tell you a little story

September 30, 2008 - Here, Here, I say, here, here

September 30, 2008 - Oh and another real life story

September 30, 2008 - Oh and One more thing

October 1, 2008 - I Hope This is Not What My Future Holds

October 1, 2008 - The Case Against Homework - The Homework Potato

October 2, 2008 - Don’t even get me started on sleep

October 2, 2008 - Another Personal Rant

Well, all that hoopla surrounding the how’s and why’s of getting our children to sleep in their own bed was for naught.  No it wasn’t really, it was extremely helpful.  Here’s the pieces of advice we took, modified and used to get the boys to the point where we are now.

1. We took away their night time TV.  Oh it wasn’t easy.  We gave them 3 nights warning which is basically how we handle everything.  We learned a long time ago that my children will do almost anything if you give them fair warning.  So, we counted down the nights and now there is no TV prior to bedtime.
2. We took away their night time "take a sippy of milk and water to bed".  Now they have no reason to come out of their room.  They would use that as an excuse.
3. I allowed my husband to force them to stay in their room and I did not intervene.  It worked.  It was painful, but it worked.
4. Wear them down.  Activities, activities, exercise and more exercise.  The more tired they are, the easier they fall asleep and the harder and more sound they sleep.

It isn’t great, at least one still makes his way to our room during the night but the last 2 nights, one has stayed in his own bed all night and the other has come into our bed after 5 AM or so. 

So, hey, I’ll take it!

I think I have a fairly secure system here.  Yes, we’ve had a few problems, don’t let anyone tell you that they don’t.  But, the fact of the matter is, prior to last Christmas or so, we really had never had any issues at all.  We simply snap together and work it.  I think what happened last winter was a huge wake-up call for both of us and now we can continue with making marriage work for us.

Don’t get me wrong, I’ve tried it a total of 4 times now, and I know a bad one when I see it.  When I read blogs online when women are discussing their husbands being abusive verbally, it rips at my very gut.  When I read blogs where women discuss the emotional and physical abuse they they endure for the sake of their children….I wonder how hard could it be to see through the clutter and the plain ugliness of it all.

I’m fortunate that there were no children involved in any of my marriages until now.  I think I was very fortunate to find a man who was childless as well.  We were roughly 34 and 33 years of age and most folks have at least had one child by that age and very rarely to those who haven’t find a partner that’s childless.

I was a step-child and I know exactly how difficult it is.  I was a physically, emotionally and verbally abused step-child too.  I am not just playing with words here when I tell you, I KNOW HOW IT FEELS.  And, I know how it feels to wonder why exactly your parent tolerates such nonsense.

I mean, I know my mother loved me.  I  know she knew he was abusive to me because he was equally abusive to her.  So why would she let that continue.  It took a really big scene for her to discover what was happening right before her eyes.  And, even still, I wonder sometimes. 

Anyway, I didn’t start this to write about that, I started it to tell you what a wonderful man I have.  Yes, he has his faults and well, ok, if you make me say it, I have faults too, but over-all, I think we make a pretty good match. 

I just thought it was time for a good story instead of stressed one and then I had to go and throw in the step-children stuff.  Oh well, just remember, good marriages do exist.  Don’t let anyone tell you otherwise.

Normally my husband and I do almost everything together.  It has been a very rare occasion that we’ve gone separate ways when he is off work.  However, last night I was feeling overwhelmed with the 3 year old’s behavior as well the counselor pretty much let me know that he felt like part of the problem I was describing was I am over-bearing.

Over-bearing?  I won’t really argue with that.  But, as much as I am over-bearing, my husband is laid-back.  My style is sit back, tell the boys to stop doing something after they’ve become obnoxious and then really lower the boom.  I prefer to simply keep them on track as the events transpire. 

The counselor basically said that I had to back off and give him a chance to parent.  He said I had trained my husband to parent that way. 

Anyway, on Thursday night I sent him to Home Depot and home with the boys and I got my manicure and pedicure.  Alone, just me and my book.  Friday night he is at home depot actually buying the lumber he priced last night and I hit McDonald’s for the boys to play before getting them a haircut and heading home. 

Saturday the boys will either be cooped up inside the house with me while my husband dismantles the deck and rebuilds one (once it is down, we won’t be able to get out of the house without jumping six feet).  If my mom is better the kids will go spend a little time with her but mostly they will be in the house with me (and my parenting style), outside in the yard with my husband (and his parenting style and please don’t let them get hurt because of his negligence) or with my mom and her even more laid back style.

It is no wonder these children are confused about what is acceptable behavior.

I generally feel guilty when I indulge in myself.  By indulge I mean spend money on myself in a way that is not beneficial to my entire family.  I’m not sure why I feel this way, but my mom never took time for herself and rarely bought things for herself so I guess I took after her. 

The thing is, when we owned the daycare, I rarely felt like I needed to have "time" away, or that I needed "speciality care".  But, when I have my 3 year old with me all day and he and I just battle one another all day long, I have to have some time to myself.  And, I generally feel guilty for anything I do for myself. 

Today we went to therapy and we had to carry the boys with us due to sitter issues.  So, we had our two boys with us when we went to therapy where we talked about those little cherubs.  Disciple was a big topic during this session, more so than any of our others. 

Then, after a 3-year-old meltdown, we headed to dinner.  When dinner was almost over, my husband suggested that he would take one kid and go get lumber prices for our new deck if I would take the other.  I quickly said, "I was thinking you would take them both and I would go get a pedicure".  And, immediately the guilt set in.

I did go get my pedicure but I also checked with my husband several times because I felt like a bad person for leaving him to deal with both kids.  It isn’t that the boys are that difficult, but I did leave him to handle bedtime alone. 

I know I know, it didn’t hurt anything, but mommy guilt is serious business.

Discuss.

I’m looking for good information to pass along to you, the readers of this blog.  I am dying for some interaction.  So, I’m going to challenge you to an experiment.  Are you willing to try it?

Here’s how it works.  For 21 days you will live a complaint free marriage.  I read about it first on Simple Marriage and here is how it works.

It is simple, you go 21 days in a row without complaining.  Sounds easy, right?  No, it doesn’t to me, I’m a complainer and simply from our counseling sessions already, our counselor has agreed that yes I complain but that I am also correct that when my husband suggests that I am nagging, that he is the problem in that area.

Dr. Phil (and I know his credibility is ruined but this makes sense, even if a convict said it) explained once that it takes 2 people to make a nag.  One person to make a request, "Will you take out the trash please?", the second person to ignore it or say, "Ok, later" but never actually do it.  The second person doesn’t do his/her part and the the trash stays inside longer.  The first person says again, "Will you please take out the trash?" and the second person either ignores it or says, "ok, later" but still doesn’t do it.  The first person is now a nag because he/she has to say again, "Will YOU TAKE OUT THE TRASH?"  There is no please there and the second person is thinking, "why does he/she keep saying this to me?"  Make sense, it took both parties to make a nag.

Now, complaining is a little different.  So to go 21 days without complaining is an entirely different saga. 

When I read it, the suggestion was to wear a rubber band or something obvious around your wrist.  Do not complain to your spouse.  If you do, you switch the bracelet or rubber band to the other arm and start your 21 days over. 

Now, make sure you understand that a complaint is a complaint but just because you are asked to do something does not make it a complaint.  Here is Echart Tolle’s take on the subject of complaining,

Complaining is not to be confused with informing someone of a mistake or deficiency so that it can be put right. And to refrain from complaining doesn’t necessarily mean putting up with bad quality or behavior. There is no ego in telling the waiter your soup is cold and needs to be heated up-if you stick to the facts, which are always neutral. ‘How dare you serve me cold soup…?’ That’s complaining.

Let me know if you are willing to give it a try, I’m curious to see if anyone is brave enough.  If I can get just one person to join me, I’ll give it a whirl, otherwise, having no one to chat it up with makes it harder to stick with. 

Can you do it?  Will you?

I certainly do not wish to alienate anyone and this is not a male bashing post.  What I am interested in learning is how to prepare my two young boys as they grow and learn to cope with the outside world.  The fact of the matter is this, my husband depends on me for a great deal of the family responsibility.  No, he works, he his the bread winner but he has no clue how the money is spent.  A few months back I insisted that he take charge of the checkbook and the bills and see if he could manage any better than I could.

Thus far, he is slowly slipping out of the responsibility and I am taking over once again.  I know that part of that is related straight to our personality types.  I am a type A perfectionist, he is more laid back and is a horrible at time management.  He was in the army where he had to be responsible for himself so I know he can do it.  When he returned from the army, he had to get a job and find a place to live, etc and he did just fine. 

Later he married and he let his first wife handle all things that related to the responsibility factor while he merely sat around and let her work it out at her own discretion.  And, here now, 10 years later and he is doing the same thing. 

As it is right now I make his doctor’s appointments, I take care that his blood pressure medication and ADD medication are filled and refilled at the right time and as it stands, I’m back to handling the finances.  I make the decisions on the children’s health, dental, school and schedules even.

So, what I’m wondering is this, how do I foster a sense of independence and responsibility in my two sons as they grow so that I do not have a son who can’t even remember when to take his own medication?  I know that my father is the reason I have the attitude that I have but he isn’t around for me to ask and who knows, he might not have a clue what to do with my wee tots in this generation.  So, I come to you, any suggestions?

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Today was our session with our counselor.  I think all three of us really don’t know how to act because my husband and I really don’t have any issues to sort through.  There are some but not that I’m comfortable revealing to the counselor just yet.  But, when we met him the first time, I was the one doing all the talking.

I told the counselor how I felt about the way Wayne treated the boys, how he was grumpy and hateful, etc.  But, at the same time, he had just started taking an anti-depressant and he was already starting to get better.  So, before we closed, I simply said, "Here I’ve done all this badgering of my husband and he hasn’t said one negative thing about me.  Does that mean I’m doing everything right and I’m perfect?"

We all got a good laugh out of that.  So, Wayne looked at me and said, "you know the only problem I have."  I looked at the counselor and told him that that Wayne didn’t like it because our children slept in our bed.  The counselor laughed and asked Wayne if that was the issue.  Wayne confirmed it and we all got a good laugh about how I was doing the talking for both of us. 

Anyway, today, after a little jabbering about the fact that things were relatively good at our house, he asked if we were serious about getting the children out of our bed.  Wayne didn’t answer.  I let him know that it doesn’t bother me that they are there and that Wayne was the one who doesn’t like it.

He offered up a bit of research which is difficult to explain but I’m going to try.  Basically it goes like this (I thought I would eventually find it on-line but I couldn’t):

Group 1 of Chickens:

This group had a lever in their cage and each time they pecked it, they got a piece of corn.  So, obviously they learned, peck once and corn comes out.

Group 2 of Chickens:

This group had a lever in their cage and they had to peck the lever 5 times to get corn.  So, they would peck peck peck peck peck, get corn, peck peck ..you understand I know.

Group 3 of Chickens:

This group had a lever in their cage and they got corn at random pecks.  One peck, corn, 5 pecks, corn, 20 pecks, corn, 8 pecks, corn.

Then, they took all the corn away.

Group 1 of Chickens:

This group peck, no corn, peck, no corn, peck, no corn - and they finally gave up.

Group 2 of Chickens

This group would peck peck peck peck peck,no corn, lather, rinse and repeat.  This group finally gave up.

Group 3 of Chickens:

This group never gave up, they just kept pecking because they thought that at some point they would eventually get a piece of corn.

He related that to our children.  He says that they have figured out that there is a limit where we just say, "I give up, it is simpler to just let them go into our bed than to keep fighting us."

As we speak, we are doing the bedtime battle, however we both agreed that it is a mute point until we get back from vacation.

His suggestion of course, as I already knew, was to hold our ground.  No going to our bed, they had to go to bed in their bed, period.  No matter how many times they come and ask us before we go to bed, the answer has to be no.  Wayne can do it, or so he says he can.  I can’t.  I hate it.  I don’t like for them to cry.

I told the counselor how I am an only child and I was always alone and I hated it.  All I can think about is how horrible it felt and when the kids want to come to bed with us, I feel it is because they are feeling that way.

His answer, of course, was "don’t project yourself onto your children".

Finally, it came down to the fact that if they come to our bed during the middle of the night, we simply took them back to their room.  I agreed that this was a simple plan.  We’ve done it before.  However, as I told him, that always falls on me. 

When it was one and we were breaking him, I would get up 7 or 8 times a night and take him back.  Wayne never had to do this, he never even stirred.  The man could sleep through a volcano. 

The counselor agreed that this was ridiculous and how did I get any rest.  I explained that I didn’t, sleep deprivation is ugly and on me it is really ugly.  So, again I made the suggestion that even though it doesn’t bother me that the kids are in our bed, I know it bothers Wayne and I’m willing to toughen up and let him handle them prior to us going to bed.  I followed that up with the fact that when the boys come into our room after we are asleep, I felt like it would only be fair that he get up at least half the time.

The counselor agreed that it was fair.  Wayne on the other hand admitted that he would never wake up.  So, I say, "it just doesn’t work out because he wants it but I am the one who wakes up every time, even if it is to wake him up and tell him that it is his turn to take the kid back to bed."

The counselor agreed again that this sounded off.  We left this session with the counselor stating that if we really wanted the children out of our bed, he would help us.  But, of course, he made it clear, WE have to WANT it.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The counselor said that when this happened with his children, he would finally get to a point where he would sit his children down before bed and tell them "Listen, Dad is not getting any sleep, if you come to our bed tonight, I’m going to spank you."

I obviously made an odd face because he said that he did indeed get his little paddle out and spank one of his kids at 2 AM.  But, that this child quit coming to their bed. 

I am not going to spank my children for coming to our bed, even if it is 99 times.  I will however try to find a way of rewarding them for staying in their bed. 

So, I am curious what you guys do about "children in the marital bed".

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